Putting Yourself Out There with Chelsea DesAutels

Chelsea DesAutels is the author of A Dangerous Place (Sarabande Books, 2021), which was named a New York Times Editors’ Choice and described by Publishers Weekly as a “lush and transformative debut” (starred review). Chelsea writes and teaches extensively and is the founder of Freshwater Writing, which offers writer-focused, community-centered retreats, writing circles, and mentorships.

In Part 1 of my conversation with Chelsea, we talk about her experience attending and running retreats and the importance of putting yourself out there to make connections and build a life as a writer. 

Check back in two weeks for part 2, where we discuss risk, rejection, and the role of poetry in difficult times. 

Show Links:

• Chelsea's website
• Chelsea's Instagram
• Freshwater Writing

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Transcript

 Ep. 87: Putting Yourself Out There –Chelsea DesAutels 

Laura Walker: [00:00:00] Thanks for listening to another episode of Writing Connections, a podcast for writers seeking connection. In today's conversation, I speak with Minnesota poet Chelsea DesAutels, who I first met through a workshop she taught through the Loft Literary Center in Minneapolis. 

In this first half of our interview, we talk about her experience attending and later running retreats and about the importance of seeking connection as writers. 

And to state what will quickly become the obvious: I was getting over a bout of influenza A during this recording, and it very much shows up in my voice. Reminder to get your flu shot, I guess. 

Anyway, here we go. 

Good Idea Ding 

Laura Walker: Thank you so much for being on the show, and welcome. Let's go ahead and just start with you introducing yourself and the kind of writing you do. 

Chelsea DesAutels: Sure. I am Chelsea DesAutels. I am a poet and occasionally a would-be essayist. My debut collection of [00:01:00] poetry is called "A Dangerous Place." It came out a few years ago from Sarabande Books. And since then I've been working on a new manuscript, which I hope to have wrapped up here pretty soon. Most of my sort of writerly time is spent, reading and writing poetry and then working with writers who primarily write poetry as well. 

Laura Walker: Oh, that's exciting. How much are we allowed to know about it? Is the new manuscript... Is it poetry, is it prose, is it both? 

Chelsea DesAutels: Yeah, it's poetry. It is currently, and perhaps forever, titled Someone Else's Life, and it is at the point where, you know, I could continue tinkering with it, maybe there are a couple more poems I could write, but it also could be considered done. So that is really wonderful to finally be at that place with this. This manuscript feels really good. 

Laura Walker: I'm so glad. And I know what you mean about that kind of tinkering stage, especially with poetry. I'm very much still in the thick of major revisions with my novel manuscript, but yeah, poetry I think [00:02:00] lends itself to a particular pull toward tinkering, I think, in a way that prose doesn't always necessarily do. 

Chelsea DesAutels: I wonder if part of it is not that poetry collections don't have arcs because they do, but I wonder if part of it's a lack of plot, that the book could always be something else. It could always be made into something different. 

And so there is an urge sometimes to keep re-imagining what it might look like or what questions it might be going after. And it doesn't feel like any of those are outside the scope of possibilities. 

Laura Walker: That is a really good way of putting it, yes. And I have to say I love that title. I hope that it does stay the title forever, because I can think of so many moments where I've felt like, is this really my life or is this someone else's? 

Okay, so since this is evolving away from a podcast that's exclusively about writing retreats, I do want to start in that space, talking about your history with writing [00:03:00] retreats, including different kinds, different iterations of retreats that you've been on, that you've run, et cetera. 

Chelsea DesAutels: Sure. My introduction to writing retreats was as an attendee in graduate school. I was at the University of Houston and we were fortunate in that we were given a little bit of money each summer from the school to go spend on developing our writing, and I took it as an opportunity to go to different retreats and conferences. And I found working with different teachers to be really important to my writing, but I found even more so having a period of days or sometimes a week or even a little bit better than that where I could just sort of get into poem mind and stay there, keep being imaginative and attentive and stay in that world, without being interrupted and pulled out of it... so important for my work. And at times I felt I was able to create things there because of the physical distance that I'm not sure I would've been able to create otherwise. 

[00:04:00] So once I began teaching in the community, I knew early on that I would want to lead retreats in part because the intimacy of a writing classroom is one of the most important and I think magical parts of it and the intimacy at a retreat, it's even greater. There's even more room for it. 

And I wanted to be able to provide writers with community and communion, but also with that sort of special sacred brain space. So I was looking to figure out a way to lead retreats, places that were really beautiful–that was important to me, the natural beauty–and then keep them relatively small. 

And keep them pretty full service. Another part of a lot of these conferences and retreats that I had attended that mattered a lot to me was this level of caretaking that you can receive at these sometimes. I mean, someone is making you beautiful meals. Someone is giving you a map with all the best hikes. There's just this level of [00:05:00] care and tenderness that I think is really rare and remarkable and so important for artists. 

So those were some of the things I was really hoping to provide. And a few years ago I began leading writing retreats, generally multi-genre, on the North Shore of Lake Superior, which is a really gorgeous, naturally powerful place. I've led retreats in Maine and a few other instances like that, but primarily they've been ones that I've organized and ran myself. 

Laura Walker: So you've been part of retreats in other places where you were co-hosting, but not necessarily the facilitator of the full retreat. 

Chelsea DesAutels: Almost. Most of the retreats that I've done, I have been the organizer and the facilitator and have handled all the details top to bottom. and then there have been a couple occasions where I've been hired just to come in and be the facilitator. But the meals and the location and the marketing and all that has been left to somebody else. 

So I've had this wonderful opportunity to pop in somewhere [00:06:00] gorgeous, work with writers, and then come home. 

Laura Walker: Kind of sounds like the best of both worlds honestly, having done the organization side and never really done the facilitating side myself. I have to say, too, I love that idea of caretaking, because I feel like what ends up happening is that, as a writer or a retreat attendee, your needs are being met in a way and you are being taken care of in a way that allows you to then extend that same sort of care and attentiveness to your writing, which is so important obviously. 

I mean, that's what the time and the space are for, is to actually tend to this part of yourself that, in day-to-day life, especially with work and family and relationship and social responsibilities, isn't always possible to do, right? In an ideal world, we'd be able to do that all the time, but instead, you have this little 

microcosm of the [00:07:00] ideal world where that is not just allowed, but very much fostered. 

Chelsea DesAutels: Totally. It reminds me of like, you know, the moment right before you fall asleep where all of a sudden your shoulder relaxes and you realize you didn't even know you'd had it tensed or something, you know what I mean? Like that moment where you thought you were already relaxed. And then there's this additional release that happens. 

Laura Walker: Absolutely. Yes. 

Chelsea DesAutels: I think sometimes when our work is being validated and we are being validated as artists and someone is nourishing us and the bed is comfortable—like when all of that comes together, we're not making decisions all day long about what to cook for dinner, we're not making all these choices, we're not jumping in the car and having to run all these errands. 

And I think there's something equivalent to me about that, like, last muscle release right before bed where it's like all of that can just be. You can just let go because that's taken care of. And so all you have to do, as you said, is in turn take care of your work. 

Laura Walker: Yeah, that is beautifully said. And I'll say too, that [00:08:00] having attended one of your retreats, I feel like you have nailed the caretaking part of it. And then just allowing the space for the writing to happen. Creating the kind of, I don't know, I guess the kind of atmosphere, but also the sort of like communal ambiance that really lends itself to what you, just a few minutes ago, called poem mind. 

So what advice do you have for writers who are considering either attending or running a retreat of their own? 

Chelsea DesAutels: For writers considering attending a retreat, the first thing I would say is go for it. There are loads of these retreats happening, which is a gift to all of us. 

I think spending a little bit of time trying to find one that's the right fit for you is worth it. I think a lot of times just from how things are described on websites and who's leading it, you can get a sense of sort of the [00:09:00] values and the atmosphere that someone is trying to create. 

So maybe you're at a place where you just need to really work and push hard. That might be a different kind of retreat than one where you're tenderly starting a new project. I would say definitely go do your best to find one that feels like it's going to be a good fit for what you know of yourself. 

And also, be willing to take risks. This is a good time to put yourself out there creatively. And I would say also socially, I'll just say from personal experience, the first few retreats and conferences I attended, I treated really professionally. Like, my job here is to write one poem every day and read these books and do this, and I had those goals and so I spent less time with the people who are at the retreat because I was so intent on what I wanted to accomplish there. 

I do think going in with a pretty good general idea of how you want days to look and what you want to work on is great. But I [00:10:00] would just really encourage opening yourself up to the people who are also there in attendance. I think that's just one of the most important parts of these. Learn from my mistakes. Don't wall yourself off in a bedroom because you think you have to in order to get the work done. Those relationships and friendships can go on for years and years and be so generative and so important afterwards. So, those are some of the things I would say. 

Laura Walker: That is such important advice that actually ended up being a really strong theme with my last podcast guest, who was a friend that I connected with on residency in Pennsylvania. And I very much tend toward that same mentality of “Gotta get the work done. That's what I'm here for. I only have three weeks!” It's this finite experience and you really, really want to make the most of it. 

And it really took me opening up to the other retreat attendees, residents in this case, to recognize that that is part of the [00:11:00] work too, and that the connections and the friendships, even if it's just a sort of like fleeting holding of space for each other while you're in that shared space, that can be just as important as what, in my sort of like “Protestant work ethic” brain, I think of as like, doing the work, right? 

That's the stuff that my friendship with Shannon and my connections with Julie and Melissa and other women and individuals who I've met on these different retreats—those are the things that can sustain the writing past the experience, past the moment of the retreat. 

Chelsea DesAutels: Yeah. We can love language and love the work to the fullest extent and not be able to make it a life without others. I really do think 

that nobody actually can make a writing life entirely on their own. We really rely on one another. 

We need one another. [00:12:00] Even just to have another writer in your life who's saying, "yeah, keep going." Sometimes that's all we need, but it's vital, like we have to have it. So yeah, those relationships are just everything. 

Good Idea Ding 

Laura Walker: There is so much truth in Chelsea's words. Building a life as a writer is certainly about the writing, but it is probably equally about the connections. As I've said before, and will continue to say, I have been so fortunate to have a solid support network, people I count on and truly need in this endeavor. 

Since I stepped away from full-time teaching, these connections have become a tightly woven safety net that catches me over and over again. Since I stepped away from full-time teaching these connections have become a tightly woven safety net that catches me over and over again. Some of them are mentors, some are fellow writers, and others are just hardcore believers in me. 

I belong to two thriving writing groups, one for poetry and one for prose, and in both cases, I think it's fair to say that the writing we do wouldn't happen, at least not to the [00:13:00] same standard and extent, if we didn't have each other to rely on. I have the readers of my newsletter who respond generously to my words so that I don't feel like I'm shouting into the void as I otherwise might. 

I have the Utah Humanities crew, friends from my MFA program at Northern Arizona University, and all of my friends and connections from Southern Utah who support me. And of course I have my family, especially my wife and siblings whose encouragement and love have held me steady through so much change. 

My hope is that this show can be a source of support for others; a way of saying through the airways, "Yeah, keep going." 

Good Idea Ding 

Laura Walker: And then you were gonna say as far as hosting a retreat? 

Chelsea DesAutels: Where to even start? I'll tell you, for me, it felt super risky the first time. I was so afraid that something was gonna go wrong because I felt 

like I was putting myself out there in a really vulnerable way. Maybe other people who lead retreats feel differently, but I really felt like I [00:14:00] was opening myself up in a way that felt very scary. So one of the first things I did was decide I was just going to treat, especially the first retreat as an experiment. That way I couldn't fail. I was just going to learn from it as best I can. I was gonna go in as prepared as possible. 

I'm a firstborn Virgo, I'm an ex-lawyer, I love a detail and a spreadsheet. And so I knew I could trust myself that that part of things was going to be in place and that there was no way there wasn't going to be something that went off the rails or was unexpected. So yes, first couple pieces of advice would be to just be brave, treat it as an experiment. 

And then for me, one of the things that really helped take the pressure off and make me feel a little bit more secure in what I was doing and also I think led to a better retreat was collaborating with somebody. Having another person to think through the arc of the workshop, to think through the dynamics of the writers who were [00:15:00] coming, to think through how we wanted the food to look and feel and taste. 

Just to have somebody else there shoulder to shoulder with me was remarkably important. In these sort of situations, you also always want to make sure you're kind of reading the room as well as you can, right? In terms of whether it's a workshop or whether someone's sharing something or whether you can tell somebody's about to embark on something creatively that maybe is going to be hard for them to revisit. 

These are things you're trying to be aware of while you're teaching, and I think it's a really important part of the job. So to have somebody there that you trust that you're teaching alongside or collaborating with in any sort of way, for me was absolutely vital, especially in the first couple of retreats. 

And is, I think, just another nod to how important relationships and friendships are as a writer, no matter what part of the writing, whatever it is you're doing at that point, how vital we are to one another. 

Laura Walker: Yeah, it's kind of like no matter where [00:16:00] in the writing ecosystem you are, there still is that vital need for all of these different kinds of connection. 

Chelsea DesAutels: Totally. I'd be curious to hear what you think, but the writer I've taught with a few times—her name is Rachel Ballenger—and part of the 

reason I think some of the conversations at the retreats went so well is because many of the topics were things Rachel and I had been talking about on the telephone in our own lives and sort of parsing through and chewing on. 

I think to be able to show up and very truly demonstrate trust that we had in one another and also that we didn't know everything, that we were curious about this. I think all of that was useful to building the group 

Laura Walker: Yes, I can definitely see that—that it just became an extension of an ongoing conversation. And I think there also was a sense that your connectedness to each other created, [00:17:00] you used the word intimacy a few minutes ago, that you're trying to create an intimate space. And I think that also got extended to the group, right? That there was a known element between the two of you that helped the rest of us to feel comfortable and open to the idea of being known in that kind of way as well, if that makes sense. 

Chelsea DesAutels: It makes so much sense. Coming to a writing retreat can take a lot of bravery, like we were just talking about, for those of us who have social anxiety, there's that element. 

But also, are you about to share your work with a bunch of people you don't know and how are they going to treat it and how are they going to take it? So I think as a facilitator, the sooner you can develop a level of comfort and safety and trust and experimentation, like all of that, I think, the better. 

And so the more that we as facilitators can embody that and demonstrate that and sort of how we are living and talking and working throughout the time, I [00:18:00] think the better. I think that's a service we all do for one another. 

Laura Walker: Absolutely. I'm thinking about my experience of being the only one at that particular retreat who wasn't from the region, having to navigate flying in and then transportation and the warmth with which you responded to my sort of... oh, I don't want to call it neediness, but semi-neediness in that situation really helped. And I'm thinking now, I don't know, I guess that idea of collaborating with another person becomes even more important. 

If you lack that naturally, have somebody alongside you who can be the warmer, more open individual. If that's not your wheelhouse, then work with somebody who has that as their wheelhouse, right? 

When my friend Shannon and I were planning our retreats last year there were very many ways in which we were quite similar, but also significant ways where 

we complementing each [00:19:00] other and we were aware of that, right, that there was something that she was bringing to the retreat that was just a skillset or a trait that I didn't have myself. 

Chelsea DesAutels: Yeah, that makes total sense. Complementing each other is really important. I'm thinking back to some times where I was in attendance at these. I think you can really sense that I'm just thinking about sometimes where the instructor felt so rigid or a little unavailable or a little cold. And that doesn't mean the workshop wasn't fantastic and we weren't all getting great feedback I can imagine maybe if someone is just wonderful and warm, and also you're not maybe hearing from them what you need to hear to push your work forward. Being able to bring all of that is something we can all strive for forever, but striving for it, I think is worth it. 

Laura Walker: I want to go back to something that you mentioned. You said that you had to set up the mentality for yourself of running your first retreat as an experiment with the potential for [00:20:00] failure or at least with the potential for missteps and mess ups. I am really intrigued right now and maybe forever by the idea of failure and rejection as a writer. In my experience, at least, it's such a consistent part of the writing life and the writerly experience. What would you say is the role of rejection and /or failure? 

Chelsea DesAutels: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think I would start by just saying... well, I might want to tease out differences between rejection and failure, because I don't think receiving rejection is necessarily a sign that what you've done is a failure, but I will say that rejection and the writing life are inextricable forever and ever. 

Good Idea Ding 

Laura Walker: I know this may seem like a hard point to pause on, but it's important to understand that rejection is a part of the experience of being a writer, a vital part. [00:21:00] That's not all bad though. In a newsletter from June of last year, I wrote about how what feels to us like failure can often be a hidden kind of success. 

In my next episode, which entails the second half of my conversation with Chelsea, we'll talk more about rejection versus failure and how we can shift our view around these ideas. We'll also dive into what's been unfolding in Minneapolis and the role of poetry in times of political chaos. 

Thanks so much for being with us and tune in for more soon.